Hi Ale, Thanks for getting back to me. I'm keeping the entire contents of your response as you asked. If you could only clearly state on your website that s8 is based on Amber (formerly known as Jtalk) with a link and the license, it would completely solve the issue. Getting the license file is currently almost impossible unless you really know where to find it, and I don't think that's good enough, sorry. Your work is based on Amber, and Amber is under MIT, all I require from you is to respect the copyright and put it **somewhere visible**. What you're saying is obviously not true. I read a good part of S8 as it is online today, and I can assure that it's not just "as compatible as possible" with Amber, it **is based on** Amber with modifications and additions to it. I can even tell you that s8 is based on a version of Amber that's at around 2 years old. I recognize the code without any doubt, and can point you to links if that's required (but I do hope that this will not be needed). I could even point you to issues that S8 does have today as they were resolved in Amber during its development over the last 2 years. I do not care about philosophical matters here, what matters to me here is being fair play. I do not try to understand what you are doing. I'm just seeing Amber code being used. That's all. Please don't get me wrong, I don't want by any mean to be rude. All I ask is my work and other Amber contributors' to be respected. Cheers, Nico On May 16, 2013, at 5:31 PM, "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo@smalltalking.net> wrote:
Dear Nico,
As you wrote to my personal email and c.c. to places where I am not subscribed, please c.c. my response (total or partially) to that places to make the point clear to persons that can read your asumptions about S8.
I am continuosly making presentations (real and virtual meetings) about S8 (the project), the objetives and also "why we are doing what we are doing" using the current implementation just now. [*] S8, as an implementation, are resources we have to make a step in our objetives at Smalltalking (the Smalltalking objetives are stated in http://www.smalltalking.net web site as "Un emprendimiento para el estudio de Ambientes de Objetos Virtuales") and we have been working with the same objetives from year 2001 (and I personally have been working more than a decade before the fundation of the association, at diferent levels, not only "writing code";) but also on design of concepts behind de use of virtual objects in syntetic ambiences, high perfomance execution environments -for smalltalk-, presentations about what "is" an OA and how it affects/change people, etc...)
I feel you consider only the code of S8 trying to understand what we are doing; without enough information about us. It is something frequently observed here, most people interested in "the code" (there is a lot to read today in the age of open sources) but it is wrong to try to infer history from code/snapshot. The use of open systems can help to learn that objects are much more than code, specifications and tools; but it require that the smalltalker leave the habbits of thinking in smalltalk as a language (and written code or it's contents).
On your first paragraph:
After looking at S8 [1], it's clear that it's a fork of Amber [2]. While this is perfectly fine as Amber is released under MIT, I really don't like the statements on the website about the license and origin of the project [3].
(wrong) there was a time when I wanted to make S8 implementation as much as possible compatible with jTalk, and adapted most of my code to jTalk implementation and semantics. But a short time after that I leaved that conformace restrictions (because I did not saw much development in jTalk, and saw modifications going on a way I don´t wanted to follow). I've wrote that in a personal email long time ago.
S8 code can be considered a fork of jTalk, the same way as it can be considered a fork of other works (it contain source code from multiple open sources as stated in the license, present in each generated image). It is ok for me if people want to consider S8 a fork of one or other work, and also add lines to more origins in their copies of the code. I am not personally interested in code, credits nor written words. I am interested in always evolving systems (running in computer media and/or minds) and sharing experiences with people in motion (more than "one" history).
On lincese terms... it is Smalltalk... and, as usual...
The license terms of a S8 image can be read evaluating the following expression in a workspace:
Smalltalk current licenseTerms
it returns aString with the license terms in the environment it is currently running (it can change according to loaded frameworks at moment of evaluation) e.g. if you point your chrome browser to http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/239/index.html you can open a workspace and evaluate the code to check license under that conditions/time of execution.
In case of running a S8 image in .net environment, that binds to .Net core frameworks running heterogeneous VM architecture, e.g. S8 for servers running IIS hosted sites you can see that #licenseTerms return aString including other "origins". It can also be the case for systems running on Android devices including frameworks to access native resources/services and/or browser applications doing computer vision tasks with frameworks I have written for that kind of applications.
To try to understand the situation please consider that you made wrong asumptions on the reference [3] in your text. ---your refs--- "the project [3]" -> http://u8.smalltalking.net/ ------------------
U8 is not a project. It is a service, for social development using Smalltalk. A service given free by Smalltalking association to promote the use of smalltalk under the guides of our formulation about OA (popular in our region).
There is not enough public information in written form about S8 project; it is something I use to do (to do not write papers :-) because I prefer to talk personally to produce more impact in people interested in OA; than to reach masses (e.g. exploit the marginal power of smalltalk). Sorry for that, I know it is the cause of confusion about other ways of working with smalltalk and also about most of the works I've made with my smalltalks :-)
[*] I will make a presentation about S8 in a few days at STIC2003 ( http://www.stic.st/ ) and it will be a good place to see more about S8 than reading the code :-) I will also try to make presentations in Europe this year, so we can meet to talk about our objetives and what we are doing with S8; and what we have done with Smalltalk to people in the last decades. I know that the differences and impressions we have on each other will resolve with patience, time and talking about what we want to do when we are on a keyboard :-)
all the best, Ale.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Petton" <petton.nicolas@gmail.com> To: "esug-list" <esug-list@lists.esug.org>; "Amber ML" <amber-lang@googlegroups.com> Cc: "Alejandro F. Reimondo" <aleReimondo@smalltalking.net>; <u8@smalltalking.net> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:15 AM Subject: It looks like Amber, it smells like Amber. But it is not Amber!
-- Nicolas Petton http://www.nicolas-petton.fr