:) Sorry, not very serious but still: "Newspeak is a new programming language *in the tradition of Self and Smalltalk*" [http://newspeaklanguage.org/] "Pharo is a clean, innovative, open-source *Smalltalk-inspired environment*" [http://www.pharo-project.org/home] Should we ban Pharo projects because it's not Smalltalk, but only "Smalltalk-inspired"? I guess Ruby can also call itself Smalltalk-inspired? According to these definitions, Newspeak is even more Smalltalk-ish then Pharo :) And seriously, I think we discuss something else, not what Janko wanted to say... But anyway, I think we should simply stop this discussion now, and concentrate on our objectives (GSoC and others). And I hope some time later the topic will calm down, Janko and Stéphane will find a way to revise their positions towards collaboration, handshaking and even friendship for benefits of Smalltalk and all IT community. -- Best regards, Dennis Schetinin 2014-02-11 2:56 GMT+04:00 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>:
On 10 February 2014 22:52, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All,
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se> wrote:
Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers!
Cross-posting continues...
On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote:
I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair.
Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here)
I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was
*explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is
sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family.
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even share the VM!
And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through Newspeakish money, right?
Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed or reliable.
I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.
I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not (clearly it is). The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk projects under ESUG umbrella?
If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects.
[SNIP]
I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the
recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community (you know who you are) and will continue to do so.
Cool!
The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community.
This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can really... make a mess :)
3 timesRepeat: [ If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders]
regards, Göran
PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha!
Amen! Eliot
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-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.