On Jul 5, 2012, at 2:24 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 5 July 2012 11:42, Steven Kelly <stevek@metacase.com> wrote:
I think there's a misunderstanding about what "conflict of interest" means. It doesn't mean that person is bad. It doesn't mean they are abusing their power. It doesn't mean they would get money through it. All it means is that they have an interest in the matter at hand, in addition to their role on the board.
In academic circles, often you can't review a paper if you have been a co-author with one of its authors in the last N years. That's a similar kind of thing - nobody's saying that because of that, you'd accept the paper, or would be incapable of being objective, or the paper's authors would pay you(!). It's just agreed that it's better if you don't review it.
You miss an important detail: an academic circles is a competitive environment, and that's why it is completely reasonable to have such rules and watch for potential conflict(s) , because most of those rules were developed by taking competition in mind.
ESUG, in contrast, does not operates in competitive environment, and based solely on the good will and enthusiasm of the people. So i actually wondering why we blindly applying the principles from competitive environment to something which is not?
:) Thanks igor you are so refreshing….
One of the reasons why people with "conflicts of interest" don't get to vote or take part in the discussion, is that people with an extra interest are likely to get annoyed with the discussion. That's bad for the community - those people may be demotivated, and the rest may feel less trust in their board.
Every decision made will divide people on those who fine with it and those who not.. You cannot make everyone happy. This is fact of reality :) The only way how to not make new enemies is to not do anything..
Yes this is what we should have probably do over the years.
In any case, as far as I understand it, the ESUG board makes decisions about sponsorship - not the ESUG membership. They've heard our opinions, both for and against, and they can go ahead and make their decision. I for one will support them, whatever they decide. Not because as individuals they've done so much for Smalltalk, for so little reward, but because they're smart people who we've trusted to make ESUG decisions on our behalf.
All the best, Steve
-----Original Message----- From: Igor Stasenko [mailto:siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: 5. heinäkuuta 2012 12:22 To: Steven Kelly; ESUG Mailing list Subject: Re: [Esug-list] ESUG considers sponsoring the Pharo Consortium
On 5 July 2012 10:35, Steven Kelly <stevek@metacase.com> wrote:
Since I didn't really see an answer to Michael Haupt's question, about what is the main Smalltalk dialect of the board members, I did a quick Google on their home pages, looking there or on CVs for which Smalltalk is mentioned. Obviously this is not an accurate method, and I'd much rather the board members answered the question - please, please don't get annoyed because Google says this, just tell us what the real situation is. But for what little it's worth:
here are the members of the ESUG's board:
President: Stéphane Ducasse <- Pharo Treasurer: Luc Fabresse <- Pharo Damien Cassou <- Pharo Jordi Delgado <- Pharo Marcus Denker <- Squeak, Pharo Alain Plantec <- Pharo Serge Stinckwich <- none on home page, adding various Smalltalk names to the search terms shows several, with Pharo giving most hits
Just one little note: AFAIK, none of the above people real job directly related to Pharo. Nobody pays them for contributing to pharo not a penny. I am hired for work on Pharo, so strictly speaking i would be the only with conflict here, but i am not a member of board, and obviously not the one who stays behind this.. I was not aware of that, and actually was quite surprised to see such decision.
As from the mission of ESUG - promote smalltalk, supporting Pharo is consistent with that.. or i miss something?
If there's a conflict, can someone tell me, what will be direct personal benefit(s) for ESUG board members if they will decide to sponsor Pharo? They will get what? Another countless not paid hours in their life, which they would rather spend with their family?
As a tangent, a first question what we should ask, IMO is: is there other project/activities, which to our thinking will help better promoting smalltalk than sponsoring pharo? If there's one and it is clearly have higher priority according to ESUG mission, then board's decision should and must be argued. But if there's none, do you think it would be better to just hold money on bank account? Because then ESUG would fail with its mission..
I am of course unaware by what the board decision was directed to such decision.. but in my opinion it cannot be directed by anything else than: promoting smalltalk.
If that's the impression a casual web browse gives, then even if it is totally and utterly incorrect, hopefully the board can understand why it seems reasonable to members who don't know all the details to mention potential conflicts of interest.
So, what does it mean that if so many on the board have a Pharo link? First, it's brilliant that these people are active in doing something for a Smalltalk, as well as their great work in ESUG. Second, it's brilliant that Pharo people are active in wider promotion of Smalltalk in general. And third, it's going to be rather difficult to have a sensible vote on the board, and discussions on the members email list may be a little tense :).
No worries from me, though. I think it's great what ESUG are doing, and great what Pharo is doing. Personally I'd rather not have ESUG sponsor Pharo, but that's just one person's opinion, and hopefully nobody gets upset about it.
Go Smalltalk! Steve
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
_______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list Esug-list@lists.esug.org http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org